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Hello and welcome to a new program of the Women on Air Global Dialogue.
My name is Pia Steiner and I'll be accompanying you through the program today.
Today we are on the show with the feminism dialogers.
We have a video of us today with the Feminism Dialogues.
We have a video of us today with the feminism dialogs.
Today, we have a video of us who are using the feminism dialogs.
Today, we have a video of us who are convicting us with the feminism dialogs.
Hello and welcome to a new program.
I'm Pia Steiner and I'm going to take you through the show a little bit today.
The title of this program is A System That Might Kill Us All.
This was also the title of a lecture on feminist theology and feminism on October 5, 2023,
a lecture on feminist-theological and queer-feminist perspectives on violence and utopias.
Violence against vulnerable people and the exploitation of natural resources
has increased massively in recent years and decades.
The program was organized by the University of Vienna, the Catholic Women's Movement and Welthaus Wien.
The program was simultaneously translated from German into Spanish,
so you may be able to hear the translation in the background.
The input from Geraldina is in Spanish, but also in English.
The program was produced by the University of Vienna, the Catholic Women's Movement and Welthaus Wien.
Geraldina's input is in Spanish, but it is immediately followed by the German translation by Gaby Gallo.
As I said, today is the second part of this program.
In the first part you can listen to the input of the two speakers.
Today it's about the discussion between the two and questions asked by the moderator and the audience.
The two speakers are Geraldina Cesperes and Carina Schönflug.
In addition to their two voices, you will also hear Magdalena Kraus at the beginning,
who will say a few introductory words about the two speakers and introduce the topic in more detail.
Have fun listening!
Geraldina Cesperes Ojoa on my left studied philosophy and theology
and a doctorate in systematic theology in Madrid.
She is co-founder of the Nucleo Mujeres Ideología network in Guatemala
and is also a nun of the community Hermanas Missioneras Dominicas del Rosario.
She teaches at universities in Guatemala and Mexico.
She has already told Ingrid that she commutes between Chiapas and Mexico
and is also a member of the free zoological network AmerIndia.
Her current publications are Narrativas de las Racialization de las Mujeres unamirada in America Latina,
i.e. narratives of the racialization of women, a look at Latin America and the Caribbean.
Her book is called Ecofeminism, a healthy theology for the earth and its inhabitants.
The Nucleo Mujeres Ideología network in Guatemala is also a project partner
of Aktion Familienfastag and the Catholic Women's Movement in Vienna.
Then we have Tarin Schömpflug, who I would also like to introduce.
She is an economist and works at the Institute for her studies in Vienna and at the FH Campus.
She teaches feminist economics, research methods and development economics
at the University of Vienna, including in New Zealand and the USA.
In her research, she deals with the socio-economic exclusion of queer and marginalized people
and combines feminist economics with well-broken approaches.
She is also interested in monetary theory and intergenerational justice in the climate crisis.
I recently read one of her latest publications, Queer Utopia for Feminist Economics.
It's really highly recommended, I think maybe even for non-economists,
or I don't know, just for everyone, it's very entertaining actually,
I really say that as a non-economist, as well as her Ted Talk from 2022
on feminist, anti-racist and post-humanist economics, which can also be found online.
Moving author of Feminism, Economics and Utopia, Time Traveling Through Parodings.
What were we actually thinking, because sometimes the question comes up, what is this actually?
It's a bit strange somehow.
Yes, the title A System That Might Kill Us All is actually a quote that Karin makes in her Ted Talk.
It's from the feminist economist Marilyn Varing from New Zealand.
She said this about the capitalist system and its effects.
The same thing appealed to us as it did to Jonathan and me, because we had the feeling that something would come out of the sentence,
that the two speakers might have something in common.
First of all, the analysis that this system endangers life on planet Earth
and then also the resistance or opposition to this system that could kill us all.
So that's the common ground.
And what we were particularly interested in was bringing these two perspectives together,
which are otherwise perhaps not discussed so much in public in Austria.
So theology and queerfeminist perspectives.
Exactly, by way of introduction, because everyone here probably has a bit of different prior knowledge,
I would like to say one more sentence about the respective approaches of the two speakers.
So please feel free to disagree if you wish.
Exactly, so what is ecofeminist theology, ecofeminist theologians question in society and theology,
the dominant perspective, which usually places the man or the human being at the center.
Or the man is often the man in that sense.
Instead, they counter this with a holistic and relational view of the world and the human being.
All dualisms are called into question, i.e. God and the world, God and man, man and woman,
soul and body, spirit and matter. That is just a small hint.
And what is queerfeminist economics?
In contrast to traditional economic theories, queerfeminist economics takes into account
all the invisible activities that hardly get any attention, that no longer change in the world.
And that are indispensable in society.
At the same time, it is critical of all norms, be it gender relations,
heteronormative ideas of sexuality and desire or the relationship to the non-human environment.
Both speakers deal with these issues from different perspectives and also from very different geographical locations.
So Vienna and Chiapas, Guatemala, Latin America, if you can put it that way, also deal with similar topics.
One interface that we noticed during the preparations is precisely this connection between the patriarchal system
and its violence with the unchecked exploitation of natural resources,
the climate crisis that we are already living with and the capitalism that we have in the world,
and the fact that the capitalist neoliberal economic system and sexism and racism are connected.
This is important both for theoretical considerations and for practice.
Both are convinced that a new understanding of what it means to be human is necessary for a future worth living
and also a new relationship to the non-human environment, i.e. to plants, animals, stones, forests,
and all sorts of things, and both also call many norms into question,
in society, but also in the respective scientific discipline,
and in the question of how to resist this system that could kill us all.
But we're not just interested in the interfaces, we don't just want to know what we're doing here,
but we also want to get around the question of what we are doing here, what we are doing here,
But we're not just interested in the interfaces, we don't just want to know what we're doing here,
but of course we are also curious about the differences, i.e. where are the points that you perhaps see completely differently,
and then, of course, what your practice looks like, your work, and what that means for your life,
so not just the theoretical perspective.
I would follow on from your question of how we can make the earth bloom,
and that's also a question we asked ourselves in preparation, so it's called violence and utopias,
or that's how we titled it, and we asked ourselves what your utopias look like,
what does such a utopia look like, and are they perhaps already, what does it look like?
so there, again and again, exactly, so maybe that's my first question, to both of you,
or now first to Geraldina as an answer, and then also to you,
what does a utopia look like that we want to live in, and where are they perhaps already there, or are they there, or not, exactly.
I would also like to ask the question, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like, what does it look like
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whose ownership
and destruction and hypercapitalism simply arise, that they are difficult to reach.
There is now a well-known, also lesbian, very rich heiress who has founded a small activist group about the taxation of assets,
but I think we have to start with these people and the issue of capital, where the money is, that's very interesting.
There's a graphic on the internet of David Chandler and David Chandler I think is a Quaker, an American Quaker and he has a football field,
an American football field and the whole American population is standing on this football field, very close together,
and in front of them on the ground is the wealth of these people, or let's say their income, everything they receive in a year is piled up on the ground in front of them,
the 100 dollar bills and for the poorest people this pile is just so small, income of 100 dollar bills a year and only in the last 20th of this football field,
there is already such a high stack of dollar bills in front of people and only the last 100,000 people, they have a stack that is already very considerable
and virtually the very last people here, the stack goes so far up, if you imagine this football field, the stack goes up to the moon.
And you can't imagine how unequal it is, it's just the income, it's not even the wealth, i.e. what they have at all.
And this inequality is so proportional, so unimaginably huge, that we sit here and can't imagine that we're all trying so hard, but we're just the few people on this football field,
while the wealth is so powerful too. In other words, although I used to be much more hopeful than I am now, when I'm old and mature,
now I've thought to myself that you don't have to focus so much on these people, but on the money. And I find money as an institution exciting.
Because where does it come from? How was money constructed? On the one hand, money is issued by states, that's the money that should be used to pay taxes.
Or the money is created by private banks through loans, so this money always comes from debt. Or if the money is gold, you can go back to the colonies and mine gold.
But if we could change this concept of money and create money as an incentive to protect the environment, for example, and only if I avoid CO2 emissions, for example, can I get money.
There's a great book by Kim Stanley Robinson, who has written a scientific paper as a utopia, it's a very good book called The Ministry of the Future.
It explains exactly how banks could create a global currency to reduce climate risk. I think that's a cool concept, you could think further.
But as a feminist economist, I would say that it would be even cooler if such a currency were not a carbon coin, i.e. avoiding CO2, but a play on words currency.
In other words, the whole source of money would not be debt or credit, but the source of money would be care and this care obligation that everyone has. As I said, no concrete solutions, just inspiration.
Thank you very much for your answers. I still have a thousand questions, but before I open up and let your questions come, I would like to ask two more.
One is, you have both experienced lifestyles away from the nuclear family. I had to think about this because an acquaintance of mine who is a religious said how difficult it was for him,
He once lived in Berlin and had to register with his religious community and the official was totally confused and said, yes, but do you have an apartment there? He said, no, but do you live with whom? Do you live in a shared flat? Do you have a room? Neither do I.
And it was totally difficult, it didn't fit at all. In this respect, there are also two lifestyles away from the nuclear family and you occupy uncomfortable positions both socially and academically.
What is the motivation or the basis, what do you draw on, so to speak? It's just uncomfortable, why? Maybe Karen wants to start this time and then Karolina, please.
Aha, that's uncomfortable, okay. Well, queer lifestyles are uncomfortable, you could say that. Yes, the question now is whether you say you were born this way and you're just like that or whether you say you pursue this life with passion.
I'm very happy that I don't have to live a heterosexual life, I think that's incredibly good and beautiful. I don't have to run this little factory with a man or justify myself forever for not doing it, I think that's great.
I also find women, sorry, somehow more interesting than men. I think that's good and of course we're now seeing the backlash, many lesbian, gay, queer couples are now also being offered this heteronormativity, so to speak.
Please also homo-E here, please also children here, where this is then leveled out again. But I think this chance, yes, this chance to be able to pursue your own desires, your own passion and to live differently, that can also be a great force to think about change, to say, okay, I've seen how discrimination works.
Now I'm also an anti-racist, now I'm also an advocate for other oppressed groups, now I see this in a larger overall societal context. Now I try to use the energy and time I have in a different way.
So I think that's an opportunity that you can take, but you don't have to. So of course that's also a decision.
I'm used to people not understanding that. I'm anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, I say, because even in the family where one grows up and what in our country they show you what the normal thing to do at a certain age is,
I live a lesson and I am very forgiving when people ask and don't understand, even my family, for example, with the issue of money, with the issue of the economy,
I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, but I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic and anti-systemic, and I am anti-culturalist and anti-systemic and anti-systemic, and I am anti-cultural
and anticulturalist and antisystemic and antisystemic, and I am anticulturalist and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic, and I am anticulturalist and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic, and I am anticulturalist and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic
and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and
antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemic and antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und antisystemisch und ant
view.
That's a lie because the system from here, the obispoles, have told us, seclusion. I am not from seclusion, I am a woman of the street. I am from the street. I'm a missionary, open, but even in the constitutions of my conjugation, to watch them, we had to watch the cloisters.
The Sisters will watch the retreats. Of all of us who are in the Conjugation, who are in 22 countries, no one has understood that, practiced that, or has not observed us. You have to observe with that.
I am very happy about the life I live. I am counter-cultural and anti-systemic. And I say that even though I grew up in a family where we naturally learned what is normal. But I have broken with this coalition.
Of course it's the case that people no longer understand how things are among us, how things are with income. You can't understand that either. I now live in a community with six other people.
We are from six different countries. We speak four different languages. And then everyone wonders how we can overcome these cultural differences, these language differences and also these old differences, because we are all different ages.
I could still understand that. But it's about this diversity. And of course the typical economic system, which has always been presented to us, has become counter-cultural.
I don't say I, I say we and I don't say mine, I say ours. And in the economic system, the stock of values, we simply see a way out here. And everything is just individualistic, everything is geared towards privacy.
For us, it's also about the communal, the collective. And we also live in a political community. And it can't be reduced to that.
It's also the case that I can't do anything with that, that people say, the main thing is, I heard that in Spain too, the main thing is that I and my family are doing well.
And then you bring that to the situation in the Karakoram, in the Ukraine or, for example, in Myanmar, a local nurse from Myanmar, who has been able to land with me and work with me for eight years, Mr. Jamauz, has found me and my family.
I can be like this, I tend towards this vision of the human family, the human family. And that's what I want to achieve with my attitude, which goes against traditional culture and the traditional system.
And I really liked what Farin said in relation to the system, which is designed to divide. And everything should just be divided up into small parcels so that you can control it better and so that you can take advantage of it in the larger economy.
And we, as local women, also rebelled, because we were also told that we had to be against it, that we had to get married and live within our own four walls, that we had to fit into the four walls of a typical Klot.
And that's what we were also told by the shakers when a local woman goes on a stealing tour, but we are, and I'm also a general person who is on the road, who is a missionary, and yet the statutes of our local community have to tell me that the sisters will also go on a stealing tour. We are in 22 countries, but no one after us goes on a stealing tour.
Thank you very much. As I said, I still have a thousand questions, but I would like to open up now, we still have a quarter of an hour for questions. Yes, just anyone who has a question, please, now is the time, if not, I've had enough.
Thank you very much. You see, there are exactly questions in which we work with the groups of women who are such that they have nothing to a change, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system, to a system
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and that's what I do here at
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But we use the religious question.
All these people are very religious.
Then to church, to church, to all day.
When they were there, then when these women,
young or young because we were also with groups of teenage girls and teenagers,
they said, I'm going to the Home of Screams.
Ah, go! There they will just pray.
It was not praying, but we use the time,
we use the time to spread the word.
And a lot of women said, I'm coming to the literacy class,
or to study music or any other thing,
just to get out of the home, that was a liberation.
They started talking to them,
and many women did their process of liberation,
until they said, stop!
They said, stop!
They have been led back home
and then many are hurt and afraid,
afraid to say, I'm going to this and I'm going to that,
and go to a day of retirement, to a day of work,
or to travel for two days,
at least in Guatemala, this is a great self-management,
to travel two days without the husband, the father, the brother, and so on.
We also managed to do that to break the domestic slavery.
It's terrible what it is to live in the homeland
of all the workers back home,
but we can show that there is another way.
I appreciate the theme of relationship and hearing the stories.
It's like sanatic groups, Liberation groups,
who also listen to the stories.
I'll just tell you a theme of our home, in the 18th column.
There was a woman who was always very humiliating, very hurt,
and when the man who came to the homeland was always nervous,
because she always had to fight, to scream, to will, to move.
She was looking for a way, with the cell phone,
that when they were fighting and so on,
call the other women and we came there as a relationship.
We demanded the relationship, but to spread from this situation of violence.
And then a lot of women who have managed to also say,
that it's enough, even situations of a bad relationship,
and that they have said they have to stay here and say,
no, this is where I'm coming from.
Then there are some ways.
We have a pathways that we have here,
that we have here, that we have here, that we have here,
which we have here, which we have here, which we have here, which we have here, which we have here,
that we have here, that we have here, that we have here, that we have here, that we have here,
which we have here, which we have here, which we have here, which we have here, which we have here,
then they say, yes, you can even go there all day,
and you can even go there every day.
And so we got funding from an organization,
and then we rented a house next to ours,
and we now call it the women's house.
And that's where they come so that they can get out of their house.
We have women of all ages, we have young women,
We also have girls, and then they say, yes, we're going to the nuns,
and then of course their husbands think, yes, yes, they're just going to pray,
but we certainly don't pray.
Instead, they come to us and then come to literacy classes,
maybe come to a music lesson, and they free themselves through that,
They experience true liberation by finally coming out of their robes,
and that they also say, so, now I also feel this empowerment at home,
because there are some who previously only cowered and were afraid,
and then they manage it because of the connection with the other women,
that they can come to us regularly, that they learn something,
and that they might even go on a trip for two days.
In Guatemala that is actually unthinkable, and for a woman to travel for two days,
That's really suspicious, then they say, what is she doing there?
because the women are so used to being subjected to this heinous slavery,
that they first have to learn to really draw a line under it,
and not just devote themselves to housework.
And we are trying to take a different path here.
We are trying to take the path of healing, of liberation,
to achieve this by connecting with each other.
And I can say, for example, that there is a woman here in Zone 18,
who is repeatedly beaten and humiliated by her husband,
and who is really afraid of what she is doing, and that is also a way
way she has started to deal with the situation is that when she thinks
the man is coming home now, or is afraid that there will be another fight,
or that she will be beaten, then she simply calls,
and we just happen to drop by as a visitor, and that stops this situation of violence.
And a lot of women have come to us because of this experience,
that they say, enough, the situation in my marriage is so broken,
I don't want to go on.
Karin?
Okay.
Perhaps because of this Austrian, European, privileged situation
I would like to refer to Monique Wittig's essay, The Straight Mind,
it's a good read, it's pretty cool,
where she writes that lesbians are not women.
We carried this very large poster at a March 8th demonstration,
at a women's demo, there were a lot of women,
and we came with this transparent, Lesbians are not women,
and that didn't go down so well at the women's demo,
that has now come to us, and why are lesbians not women?
you are women, loving women, the superwomen of women, so to speak.
And fortunately, we had prepared such small timelines with Monique Wittig's explanation,
and she refers to Simone de Beauvoir,
who does not explain woman as a biological or essentialist category,
but says that, like the working class, the female class can be
as an oppressed class in the capitalist world,
in the categorical, in the digital mode of production,
because they do unpaid or very poorly paid care work,
sweeping work at home in institutions, hospitals and schools and so on,
that maintain and support this system.
And if we now say that lesbians are not women,
they are not women in the sense that they also experience a gender pay gap,
but at least in the philosophical generation of the lesbian as a concept
she is not a person who can only be thought of as the husband's other.
So she stands for herself, she is not the other of the man.
Again, just such a philosophical little thought donation, not such a concrete example of action.
Of course, I was active in the Viennese lesbian activist community for 25 years
and we also tried to create women's lesbian networks,
where we as a community did counseling, group work for young, queer people,
girls, boys, trans people, intersex people,
where we did community work, worked on a voluntary basis, were constant social workers.
So we tried to do things for the community with this queer background philosophy,
actually doing very similar things, just different communities.
Thank you very much. I have to look at the clock and say it's 8 o'clock
and unfortunately we have to read on time.
That was today's Women on Air program, Global Dialogues.
The title of this program was A System That Might Kill Us All Part 2.
You can listen to Part 1 and Part 2 on our website nose.at or on CBA. Bye bye.
The Dialogues mondiales about Women on Air.
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